09.26.23 - Member Questions Night

Northern Virginia Catholic Bible Study & Apologetics

House rules/notes…

1. Online via Meetup/Zoom or In Person at St. John Neumann Catholic Church 11900 Lawyers Road, Reston, VA 20191 https://saintjn.org/

2. Meetup is www.meetup.com/catholicbiblestudy Zoom Meeting Logon info is the same every week: Zoom ID: 861 1782 2081 Password: 406952

3. I will send out Meeting Recaps the same night as our sessions – these are unedited versions without pictures. An edited version with pictures will be posted on our website https://catholiccatacombs.wixsite.com/website/recaps before the next meeting. Taylor will notify everyone at that time.

4. Questions encouraged. If you have questions about anything, you can ask in the chat box, email the Meetup group, or me at ron@hallagan.net.

5. Respectfulness. We will be discussing differences between religions and Christian denominations, and we agree to be respectful at all times. Specifically, Protestants are our friends and brothers in Christ; in fact, I personally owe part of my return to the faith to them!

6. No politics. It would be easy for us to self-destruct, but that’s not our goal. Our goal is to learn/understand/apply the Bible and our Catholic faith.

7. Catholic Prayer & Fellowship. Are you interested in praying with other Catholics during the week? Fellow member Jason Goldberg has started “Catholic Prayer, Fellowship, and Spirituality Meetup.” Sign up at: https://www.meetup.com/online-catholic-prayer-fellowship-and-spirituality/.

8. “The Chosen” TV series. All of us seek a relationship with Jesus Christ, which is not always easy. It can help if we have seen and heard Him. The Chosen captures Jesus better than any show I have ever seen. Highly recommended.

9. RSVP Reminder: Please RSVP whether you are attending the meeting or just reading the Recaps afterwards. The more RSVPs, the more Meetup will give exposure to “Catholic Bible Study” – a good thing!

Catholic Catacombs Website: https://catholiccatacombs.wixsite.com/website

Apologetics/Exegesis Terms

Ark of the Covenant – a) The golden chest containing the Ten Commandments; b) Mary’s womb containing the Word of God

Tabernacle - the portable sanctuary used by the Israelites in the wilderness from the Exodus from Egypt to the building of the Temple in Jerusalem by Solomon. Latin tabernaculum – tent; temporary dwelling place

Apologetics – to defend a belief.

Catholic Apologetics– to defend the Catholic faith using reason, tradition, & Scripture.

Exegesis – the study and interpretation of Scripture (it’s what we do here every week; you are all exegetes).

Eschatology – (Greek, eschaton=last/end): the study of the End Times – the Second Coming of Christ (also called

“Parousia”), Judgement Day, Heaven and Hell.

Church – a building for public Christian worship; the whole body of Christian believers. Greek kyriakon house of the Lord.

Eucharist –the Lord’s Supper. The consecrated bread and wine. Comes from Greek eucharistia = gratefulness, thanksgiving.

Mass – the celebration of the Last Supper/Eucharist. “Mass” is from the Latin missa meaning “to send (out).”

Evangelize – to make the Kingdom of God present in our world.

God as Father/He/Him – scriptural tradition (God is not a gender); God does set the gold standard for fatherhood.

Man – generic for mankind, humanity.

Preternatural – means “outside the natural”; refers to the preternatural grace Adam & Eve had before the Fall.

Synagogue – Jewish house of worship often w/facilities for religious instruction. Greek synagogue: assembly/meeting/gathering

Temple – Latin templum a space set aside for worship; Judaism – the original Temple in Jerusalem where sacrifices occurred.

Theophany – a divine appearance. Greek: theo (god) + phaneia (appearance).

“World” – pertaining to the material world and/or our temporary/material life here. Also, the word “secular” means the same thing (Latin seaecularis – worldly/temporal). In the Bible, it is often used with a negative connotation, i.e., “The fall of man resulted from choosing this world/himself over God/Heaven.”

Bible Study Format: Each week of the month has a repeating topic, as noted below.

Week 1: Gospel Week: Year A: Matthew, Year B: Mark, Year C: Luke, John – interspersed

Week 2: Bible Week (Gen 🡪Rev): We are in EXODUS, the 2nd book of Moses.

Week 3: Survey Topics Voted on by Members:

x 1) Jesus’ Greatest Parables x 2) Hell, Purgatory, Heaven x 3) Comparative Religions

4) Great Women in the Bible 5) Book of Revelation 6) Major Heresies and Church Councils

Week 4: Member Questions:

1. What is the difference between love and devotion?

2. Indulgences can wipe out any Purgatorial obligations under the right circumstances. What are their origin, types, how do they work, and how do we get them?

3. Why does God seem full of vengeance or violence in the OT? Is this a misinterpretation?

4. Can you provide a brief review of the origin/meaning of the (12) statements in the Creed?

5. Is “recognition” a good thing? How does pride play into it? Glory and pride discussion.

6. Can we do a Christian Meditation one evening?

7. Angels – who are they, what do they do, and do we really have guardian angels?

8. Please explain exorcisms. Do they happen, are they real?

9. Why aren't Catholic priests allowed to marry? Wasn't Peter married?

Major upcoming holy days in the Liturgy of the Church: none till November

Opening Prayer

O God

We gather here together in your midst to learn, to grow, and to change.

Help us to move into a deeper understanding of Your truth.

May we all feel safe with each other to think and to question

As we share our thoughts and lives with You.

And as you taught us to pray…

Our Father

Who art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name.

Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day our daily Bread;

And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.

Amen.

Week 4: Tonight’s Member Questions:

1. What is the difference between love and devotion?

2. Why does God seem full of vengeance or violence in the OT? Is this a misinterpretation?

3. Indulgences can wipe out any Purgatorial obligations under the right circumstances. What are their origin, types, how do they work, and how do we get them?

#1: What is the difference between love and devotion?

Devotion: generally thought to be one-way, it is a person’s intense dedication to a person, a cause, a duty, or a deity.

Love is relational, which involves another person or God. The highest love (agape) is an act of the will that desires or seeks the well-being of others. The ultimate love is self-giving/sacrificial for another without expectation of anything in return.

Credit: Reinhard Ilgner

#2: Why does God seem full of vengeance or violence in the OT? Is the Biblical God a maniac?

This has always been a difficult subject and difficult task to explain. Once upon a time, I was on the anti-Christian side of this argument, and it was a lot of fun watching Christians squirm when challenged on it.

Now I am on the Christian side and there are some good answers, although I still prefer to argue about a million other things than this! Part of the reason is that no reason really satisfies our modern-day sensibilities, even though we know we can’t look at ancient times thorough today’s lens.

I am going to give you two responses and you can take your pick. One is treating the passages as if they were literal, and one that presumes they are symbolic or figurative. Both literal and figurative are reasonable interpretations, but we don’t know for certain, so I will give you answers to both.

First, non-Christians will often make ridiculously wild claims that the God in the OT is simply vindictive and murderous. I’ve heard atheists say that God instructed the Jews to rape people, torture them, and feed their children to wild dogs. I only tell you this to prepare you because anti-Christians are apt to say anything. Smile, keep your cool.

If I hear anything like this (rape, torture, etc.), the first thing I do is ask for examples – quotes from the Bible, not hearsay. The reason I ask for it is because I know it isn’t there.

When I ask for this, they are likely to say something like, “Are you kidding? Are you denying that the God of the Bible orders genocide and rape?”

Our answer should be, “Yes, that’s right. But I would like to help you with this great difficulty, so if you can just point me to one such passage, we’ll have at it.”

Of course, they can’t, but they may respond with, “What about the part where Joshua is leading the Israelites to conquer Canaan, which wasn’t theirs in the first place, and they are commanded to kill every man, woman, child, and animal. What kind of God is that?”

“Well, first let’s eliminate talk of rape and torture.”

BTW, the more difficult quotes in the OT, such as “kill every man, woman, and child” are mostly found in Joshua, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Yes, there are passages that say this!

Literal interpretation

One… According to what is attested in the Bible, the Canaanites are seen by God as guilty of very serious crimes (Gen. 15:16; Lev. 18:3, 24–30, 20:23; Deut. 9:4–5, etc.), among which is the killing of their own children in perverted rituals (Deut. 12:31, 18:10–12). The narrative, then, holds out the justification for the execution of divine justice.

Two… You should be aware that Canaan was the evil son of Ham, the evil son of Noah. The Israelites are the descendants of Noah’s good son, Shem. So this is not so much stealing land from “foreigners” as it is a family quarrel.

Three... We must say that, as Christians, we believe God is the author and creator of all human life. As such, he has a unique authority over human beings, and can give and take life as he sees fit.

Some may respond that this seems like a double standard – God can kill and we can’t? What would we reply?

We would reply that this is not actually a double standard and, in fact, we employ the same standards today. For instance, it is illegal to run a red light, but at times ambulances run red lights. Why is this okay for them and not us?

Because they have the authority to do so.

Four... The use of the terminology, “every man, woman, and child,” is considered by many to be idiomatic, like in football when the players say at half time, “let’s go out and murder those b*******!”

However, we must also admit that this doesn’t help us with the fact that killing everyone was still the general idea, or command – women and children notwithstanding – which leads us to the fourth point.

Five… God’s reason. The text indicates if these cultures survived, they would corrupt the Israelites with these immoral practices (Deut. 7:4, 20:18). This danger was seen as so severe that, given the conditions in the ancient world, the only effective way to prevent it was their extermination. And, in fact, we see the Israelites corrupted exactly like this way just prior to the Assyrian and Babylonian conquering of Israel 500-700 years later. So God had a further reason for preventing such influence among the Israelites, especially as they enter the land and are getting started.

Six… What if there were any “innocent” caught up in the destruction of the Canaanite cities? If this were any other country, the death of the conquered would be out of luck. But as Christians, we know that death is not the end and that God is perfectly just. God is more than capable of compensating the innocent who may have suffered or died.

Seven Conclusion: The Canaanites were an evil people and divine justice was appropriate. Nor could God have them influence the Israelites, who were going to change the world via ethical monotheism. God is the author of life, and life and death belong to him. But death is also not the end, and God is perfectly just (the innocent will receive justice).

Symbolic/Figurative Interpretation

We considered the view that the passages in question were literal. Now we will consider the view that the passages are not literal. According to this view, God did not literally expect the Israelites to exterminate certain peoples. Many of these events were not written down in their final form until centuries later and may have been meant to convey a message to the readers of their time.

In fact, the Pontifical Biblical Commission expresses a common view (not dogma) when it writes:

As the best interpreters of the patristic tradition [i.e., the Church Fathers] had already suggested, the narration of the conquest epic should be seen as a sort of parable presenting characters of symbolic value; the law of extermination, for its part, requires a non-literal interpretation, as in the case of the command of the Lord to cut off one’s hand or pluck out one’s eye, if they are a cause of scandal (Matt 5:29; 18:9) (The Inspiration and Truth of Sacred Scripture 127).

Once again, the portrait given of the Canaanites in the Pentateuch is one of great depravity that involved child sacrifice. By contrast, the Israelites are called to holiness, for they are “a people holy to the Lord.” Thus, the extermination commands may thus be a way of signifying the radical incompatibility of paganism and serving God: Paganism was to be entirely avoided, although this does not mean literal extermination any more than Christ meant we should literally cut off our hand to avoid sin.

“If your right causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. For it is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be cast into hell. – Mt 5:30

For further reading on this subject or similar subjects:

Hard Sayings, by Trent Horn

One Less God Than You: How to Answer the Slogans, Cliches and Fallacies That Atheists Use to Challenge Your Faith, by John DeRosa

#2: Indulgences can wipe out any Purgatorial obligations under the right circumstances. What are their origin, types, how do they work, and how do we get them?

First of all, an indulgence is not the forgiveness of sins. It is not a sacrament, and so it does not replace Reconciliation (also called Confession). Indulgences only apply to the remaining effects of sins that are already forgiven.

Q: Remaining effects? What’s that? Isn’t sin completely forgiven in the Sacrament of Reconciliation?

Yes, but there are two parts to each sin and both must be dealt with. 1) forgiveness, which is eternal and maintains our relationship with God/Christ, and 2) repair or reconciliation of the damage we caused.

For example, say I steal your car and I get caught. Now, I might be really sorry and ask for your forgiveness. That may be a lot to ask, but let’s say you decide to forgive me. That’s part ONE of the sin. There’s still the part about the car, right? I have your forgiveness, but does that mean I can keep your car?

No, of course not. I must return the car to you in the same condition it was in when I took it. This is the act of repairing, or reconciling, the damage done. In Christianity, you will hear this called “temporal punishment” but it’s actually self-inflicted punishment, right? All we are doing is “balancing the scales” that we unbalanced.

So for each sin we commit, we first desire to be forgiven, and then we have to clean up the mess we created.

Another example: What if it’s your spouse? If you were bad, you know how important forgiveness is, right? Have you ever tried living with your spouse who has not forgiven you? Not good. So whatever the harm you did, beyond forgiveness there are damages to pay. At the very least, you will do many good things to make up for the harm done.

When it comes to God, the forgiveness part is the bigger part, because it has to do with our soul, and therefore our eternity. So when we receive forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation, our immortal souls are wiped clean. But this forgiveness does not return the car, so to speak. We must do what we can on that score.

Q: What is the purpose of the penance after confession?

When the priest gives us penance of a few prayers to say, that is to show our thanks and sincerity that we want to have a changed heart. You could also consider it a downpayment on the damage you have to repair.

Q: Do we always need to return to the person we hurt? What if it’s a dangerous situation or would cause more harm than good?

The priest may tell us to apologize to the person we hurt if we can, or else do some acts of piety or charity. As noted, it is sometimes more dangerous to return to the scene of the crime. In that case, prayer and works of charity may be substituted.

What happens if we don’t complete this work before we die?

That’s what Purgatory is for. Purgatory is Latin for purification of any unfinished remnants of sin since no remnants of sin may enter and defile Heaven. Consider Purgatory like the shower required before getting in the pool. The good news about Purgatory is that 1) a whole lot more people can get into Heaven because of it, and 2) everyone who goes there is guaranteed entrance into Heaven. And everyone in Purgatory knows they are going to Heaven.

Q: Is “Purgatory” in the Bible?

Not the word itself, but neither is Trinity, Easter, Christmas, or Bible. Over time, these words evolved to better describe the truth that is already in Scripture. The same is true for Purgatory, which means to purify.

For example, in the book of Maccabees, the Jewish soldiers pray for their dead after victory in the battlefield. Now, it there was only Heaven and Hell, then there would be no need for pray for them since in Heaven they’ve already made it, and nobody needs prayers and in Hell prayers can’t help them there. They are praying for them – as Jews and Christians have done for millennia, because of the abode of the dead before Heaven, which we now call Purgatory.

Although the Protestants removed the Book of Maccabees from the Bible, that doesn’t make it less true. Besides, the reason Christians have Maccabees in their Bible is because it was part of Jewish Scripture at the time of Christ and for 200 years before that (it was part of the Septuagint translation in 250 BC). We also know this because Jesus and the Apostles celebrated Hanukkah (called the Feast of the Dedication) in John 10:22, and Hanukkah is only found in the book of Maccabees.

The Jews, Roman Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox all pray for their dead and always have. It is only the Protestants who stopped praying for their dead 1500 years after Christ lived. One can only image how many Protestants are in Purgatory as a result. I say that with love as we Catholics pray for everyone in Purgatory.

Q: Where can the Church’s authority for indulgences be found in the Bible?

Just like Trinity and Purgatory, you won’t see the word “indulgence” in the Bible. But the meaning of it, the authority for it, and the practice of it are in the Bible.

Christ gives the Church through the Apostles the authority to "bind and loose":

“...if he (an unrepentant sinner) refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” – Mt 18:17-18

Jesus repeats this in John 20:23 in the upper room after his resurrection, adding, “Whosoever sins you forgive will be forgiven, and whose sins you retain will be retained.”

In these passages Christ gives the Church the authority to bind and loose, which not only refers to sins but to excommunicating unrepentant sinners if necessary, and the removal of temporal punishment.

In 2 Cor. 2:5-11, we find Paul granting something identical to a Corinthian man. He had committed a serious sin, which in those days required penance up to 2 years. Paul personally pardons the man and invokes Christ's name in this remission of punishment.

Q: Okay, so what exactly is an indulgence?

An indulgence is “the remission of temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven.” In other words, an indulgence is the lessening of the temporal penalties we owe after our sins have been forgiven.

Q: How many kinds of indulgences are there?

Two kinds: partial indulgences and plenary indulgences.

Partial indulgences remove some of the temporal punishment (the hurt caused by sin).

Plenary indulgences remove all temporal punishment. Wipes out all purgatorial debt!

Goal of indulgences: The Church grants them to in order to encourage all of us to seek forgiveness more often and more seriously, to spur us on to works of piety and charity, and as a result aid in the spiritual and physical condition of everyone who is touched by them in the process.

Q: Why do indulgences have such a bad name?

You guessed it – there were priests who were selling indulgences for personal gain. That’s a very bad sin.

Q: Who knows what the sin is called when you engage in the buying or selling of spiritual things?

Simony!

A common misconception about indulgences is that the Church historically supported the buying and selling of indulgences. While abuses did occur in some places, the Church did not perpetuate it but condemned it. The abuses mainly occurred before the Protestant Reformation.

It is worth noting that money – i.e., donating to charity – can be part of one’s works of charity, for money buys food, medicine, and shelter. Abuse, therefore, involves personal gain as opposed to supporting charity.

Q: How are indulgences obtained?

CCC #1478: “An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the graces of Christ and obtains from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins.”

Indulgences usually have 4-5 conditions. The first 4 are always present, whether partial or plenary, and they must be completed during the prescribed time, usually 20 days before or after the works performed in #5 (ideally same time):

1) Confess your sins in the Sacrament of reconciliation (20 days before or after)

2) Receive Holy Communion

3) Pray for the intentions of the Holy Father

4) Remain detached from sin (explain*)

5) Varies, but usually involves some act of piety or charity – the rosary or stations of the cross, a retreat, a good work such as visiting the elderly, helping the poor, etc.

* To be attached to a sin is to be comfortable in that sin; to return to it again and again without much resistance to the temptation to commit it. It is an addiction, where the desire to commit the sin is stronger than the desire to serve God. In essence, it is serving God with qualification or reservation, as opposed to total abandonment.

Q: When are indulgences granted?

Sometimes the pope announces them for a specific reason, such as was noted in the Catholic Herald on July 13-16 in honor of Grandparents’ Day.

Others are standing indulgences for those who take retreats and other things. I just completed a 3-Day Retreat at the Jesuit Manresa House in Michigan, and it came with a plenary indulgence.

There are others plenary indulgences scheduled throughout the year. For example, on Divine Mercy Sunday (Sunday after Easter), for the 5th requirement one is required to pray the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy Novena and pray before an image of the Divine Mercy at 3pm, the hour of Jesus’ death on the cross, from Good Friday to Divine Mercy Sunday (9 days).

More examples and opportunities can be found in the Enchiridion of Indulgences.

Sacred Scripture Plenary Indulgence: A plenary indulgence is granted to the faithful who read the Sacred Scriptures as spiritual reading, from a text approved by competent authority and with the reverence due to the divine word, for at least a half an hour; if the time is less, the indulgence will be partial.

Closing Prayer

Prayer to Put on the Humble Clothes of Christ’s Clothes

As I enter this day with You, Lord,

I will walk in your worn shoes and selfless garments,

Taking nothing with me, and taking nothing from others,

Because I need nothing except You.

With you, I have nothing to prove.

I will listen carefully to others,

And speak only if my words are true, necessary, helpful, and kind.

And now, dear Lord, we seek your mother’s intercessions!

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;

blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.